Curse

gangguard · Mar 31, 2005, 05:44 AM // 05:44

I didnt play any BWE in 2005 so im not sure about this, i don't think there is crossbows so maybe we should add them, longer reload, stronger attack, like hammer against sword.

Nascent · Mar 31, 2005, 05:49 AM // 05:49

*nods firmly* I agree. Its rare to find a RPG without crossbows I find, and they've always been enjoyable (if not a little slow, but hey, understandable).

gangguard · Mar 31, 2005, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Im a noobie and haven't played any MMORPG apart from Runescape so great to add crossbows

TheRealDecoy · Mar 31, 2005, 06:59 AM // 06:59

No. There are already variations of bows with different ranges and attack speeds. Crossbows would be redundant.

gangguard · Mar 31, 2005, 08:14 AM // 08:14

yea good point but swords also have diff varieties dont they?

Sin · Mar 31, 2005, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Crossbows would be great, but why the assumed design of other games? Where is all this reality infusion into a fantasy world coming from? hahahaha However, if we were to assume the design of other games, let's include Runescape where when you use a crossbow, you can use a shield. Rangers could get a major armour boost in GuildWars that way. However to me personally having played a ranger most of the time, crossbows would be great but they shouldn't be designed to some predetermined rpg assumptions. GuildWars as a whole is at mininimum an evolutionary step in online gaming introducing many "traditional" rpg events in a completely different way. Why not cross bows if they had em? Maybe some sort of "bolo" skill for em to stop and even capture enemies, that kinda thing?

Food for thought

Juillen · Mar 31, 2005, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Crossbows would quite possibly be out of place in a world such as GuildWars seems like at the moment.

They came about as a response to large units of plate armoured opponents, and then really only became used after the invention of Pike units.
The intention was to provide an unskilled conscript unit with a short ranged, inaccurate weapon which could defeat an armoured knight (which for a long time was considered highly dishonourable, if not outright heresy).
It succeeded marvelously at that.

However, a good longbow with the correct piercing head will provide near enough the same armour piercing capabilities as a crossbow at a significantly greater range.

The only downside to this is that the bow takes a good deal more skill to use, which is why the crossbow took on at all.
Despite some roleplay games allowing the use of a shield and a crossbow at the same time, trust me, it's not feasible (I used to do battle re-enactments. Steel weapon, full contact. We had the early crossbow designs available for use). To balance a crossbow and get any kind of aim at all, you need both arms free.
Unless you have a crossbow pistol (which has enough power to hurt a completely unarmoured person, but won't do more than sting through any armour at all).

From the scenes I've seen to date, the warriors are supposed to be skilled and dedicated individuals, with the peasantry taking care of the land. Not much scope for hugely massed battles (which gave rise to the need for the crossbow in the first place).

Given that skill's used to gain the edge, not sheer overwhelming numbers of unskilled individuals, the bow would be much more likely to be more finely developed, and the crossbow perhaps not appear at all.

Also, in the evironment it's going to be used (GuildWars), it'd be a real pain to use.
To reload a crossbow, you had to place your feet over the crossbar, and pull back on the bowstring. That meant no moving for the time you reloaded it. With the slow reload times, forcing you not to move, you'd likely be dead before you got the second shot in.
With a bow, you can run, and reload (more tricky than standing still, but doable), pausing only to aim and fire after drawing on the run.

Still feel like using a crossbow?

Kityn · Mar 31, 2005, 01:25 PM // 13:25

If anything crossbows can do more damage but rate of fire is slowed.Otherwise crossbows in GW wouldn't be all that bad at all.

William of Orange · Mar 31, 2005, 01:50 PM // 13:50

We have a lot of bow combinations/types (Halfmoon, Flat, Short, Long, Recurve, etc.), just as we have a lot of different combinations with swords. I see no need to introduce a Crossbow; it might be able to pump out a little bit more power, since Jullien's explanation shows us that normally they were used as one-shot kills (from what I understood), which would obviously not work in Guild Wars, but you would have to drastically cut down on the range/attack speed of them to balance out the added damage factor.

spiritofcat · Mar 31, 2005, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juillen

Essay on the historical origins of the crossbow and why they don't belong in Guild Wars.

Still feel like using a crossbow?

Nope, you've got me convinced!

chalt2 · Mar 31, 2005, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Crossbows are seige weapons, unless there will be times to either storm a Castle or defend one not sure why a bow isn't sufficient.

No to the crossbow

Mumblyfish · Mar 31, 2005, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juillen

They came about as a response to large units of plate armoured opponents, and then really only became used after the invention of Pike units.

Unless my history teacher was lying through his teeth (Damn thee, Mr Watt), crossbows can actually be traced back to 4th Century China. They can also be seen pictured in Roman Artifacts. Now, I haven't read a thing about stuff like this since I was fifteen, so feel free to tell me "The Romans and the Chinese used plate armour, arseface". In which case, aye, I'll crawl back into my corner and write poetry.

Oh, pain in my thigh
You made me drop my hot milk
My friends are laughing

Mood: Depressed *Sad Emoticon*

Allmightybob · Mar 31, 2005, 02:49 PM // 14:49

No, it would just be pointless filler

there's plenty of bow types now we don't another

chalt2 · Mar 31, 2005, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumblyfish

Unless my history teacher was lying through his teeth (Damn thee, Mr Watt), crossbows can actually be traced back to 4th Century China. They can also be seen pictured in Roman Artifacts. Now, I haven't read a thing about stuff like this since I was fifteen, so feel free to tell me "The Romans and the Chinese used plate armour, arseface". In which case, aye, I'll crawl back into my corner and write poetry.

Oh, pain in my thigh
You made me drop my hot milk
My friends are laughing

Mood: Depressed *Sad Emoticon*

You are mostly correct, the first crossbow was traced back to China but it was pre 1 st century sometime around 300 BC.

Zarconis · Mar 31, 2005, 03:34 PM // 15:34

I really appreciate the level of detail that some of you are going to make arguments against crossbows.

However, I don't think the Romans or the Chinese ever faced the Charr. I doubt the Charr will stumble upon a Ranger with a cross bow and think "I see an unskilled Ranger, one of us may be struck but if we charge him he only has one shot." Likewise, I doubt that a Roman commander instructed his unskilled crossbow users to use the skill Read The Wind or Practiced Stance for better results.

I like the idea of having a crossbow, if for nothing else, but to add an aesthetic change.

I would prefer to see its interduction along side the Dual Wielding Rogue.

Juillen · Mar 31, 2005, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Mumbly, yer not wrong.
I was putting things more in the context of what I'd seen of the game so far (basically European style weaponry/armour).
The earliest known use of a crossbow style weapon was in China, approximately 300BC.
Certainly, the Romans had plate armour.. And the Chinese had plate as early as 4th century BC (as shown on the terracotta warriors).

Most records show the Crossbow as being introduced into Europe in around the 11th century, at around the time that plate mail armour became prevalent.

Now, for those that want a Crossbow to run around with. Great.
But given that the crossbow doesn't actually do more damage than a bow, I don't see the point.
The only bonus to the Crossbow is that it is very efficient at punching through armour at short ranges.
The bolt won't travel for long ranges and loses accuracy and power pretty quickly.
If you want pure damage, you go for a broad head barbed arrow.
That is pure nastiness.

Dreamsmith · Mar 31, 2005, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juillen

Most records show the Crossbow as being introduced into Europe in around the 11th century, at around the time that plate mail armour became prevalent.

Actually, I think you're thinking of England. For some reason, crossbows came to England fairly late in the game. When the Normans invaded England, the English didn't have any crossbows (this is when crossbows were introduced to England), but they'd been in use on the continent for a century or two already.

Given the armor designs we do see in the game, it's actually somewhat odd that we don't see crossbows. They'd been in use for centuries by the time we got armor like you see some of the warriors wearing.

As far as using them in GW-style combat, it's about as realistic as using a bow. Frankly, bowmen should be mincemeat if they get engaged in melee and do something other than drop their bows and draw their swords.

Greentongue · Apr 01, 2005, 12:54 AM // 00:54

I would expect to see Muskets before I saw Crossbows. The Dwarves are the ones most likely to use either. Flat trajectories in their mining tunnels and all.
Since they have gunpowder (notice the name), a slow loading, hard hitting weapon, that is not a variation on an existing weapon (bow), would be the Musket.

Darc.Syde · Apr 01, 2005, 01:58 AM // 01:58

who else voted "There are already crossbows in the game ! "? there arent any, so i thought i was gonna be the only vote for this.

Kityn · Apr 01, 2005, 02:40 AM // 02:40

As far as power is concerned the crossbow is far more powerful at short range compared to the longbow.We are talking about 3x or more.An average adult male can pull back a 60lbs to 70lbs recurve bow perhaps more.While a crossbow can be 150lbs to 250lbs or more.Quite a differance.Put a broadhead on a crossbow and you will do some damage.Using a crossbow means a significant decrease of rate of fire and a shorter range.A longbow would make up damage output by the faster rate of fire and longer range.Ancient crossbows were very heavy and required 2 hands to operate so it would be impossible to use it with one hand.I see no reason why crossbows could not be added to GW.And btw a definate NO on muskets.